SC: China has just six SEZs. But our Board of Control cleared more than 200 SEZs in its first sitting. I know that privately you…
It doesn’t matter what I think. We are not talking off the record, and I am reluctant to talk about it because I am bound by government policy. There is some consternation about the way the policy is operating. An empowered group of ministers has been asked to look into it. It’s taking more time than I would have liked, but hopefully some of the concerns expressed will be addressed.
SC: But our industrial projects, our growth centres, our cities have zero concern about environment, human life. Shouldn’t quality of life — a sense of well-being — be a factor in the growth story? France is revising what its GDP should mean to include the intangible but crucial idea of “well-being”.
Yes, but that’s after you reach a certain level of GDP, a certain degree of per capita.
SC: That’s the point. First we must arrive at the crisis, then we will look for the remedies.
Poverty is the worst polluter. If you are poor, you live in the most polluted world. The sanitation is poor, the drinking water is poor, the housing is poor, the air you breathe is poor. Everything is polluted. Poverty is the worst polluter. It’s our right, our duty, to first overcome poverty. In the process, yes, we will be sensitive to concerns expressed by other countries but not at the cost of our growth and our goal of eliminating poverty in our lifetime.
SC: The worrying thing is that on the ground the exact opposite of what you say is happening. Take the POSCO project or Vedanta or the sponge iron factories in Raigad. It is the poor who are suffering the most from the move towards industrialisation. Most of the unrest in the country today is over development projects that are anti-people — in terms of land takeover, resource usage, pollution of water and air. On the very things you talked about — air, water, basic health, basic living — the growth that is meant to alleviate poverty is adding to their misery. Do you call this inevitable collateral or would you admit the way we are going about things is wrong?
I think people are being deceived to believe that the existing state of life is an ideal state of life and development and industrialisation will make it worse. Here we talk about steel prices going up, but for three years we have stopped the world’s largest steel producer from producing steel in India. This could be categorised as a conspiracy of the socially-driven class to keep poor people poor. What is the quality of life we are talking about? They have no food, no jobs, no education, no drinking water. These districts of Orissa have remained poor since the world dawned. They live in abject poverty and you want me to accept the argument that if you set up a steel plant or mine the minerals there, they will become even poorer? What are we talking about?
SC: I am talking about the way it’s done. So what do we do?
We keep the minerals buried in Mother Earth? We keep the iron ore where it is, we keep the coal where it is and keep people poor? Is that what you’re suggesting? I’m telling you, we must develop those iron ore mines, we must mine that coal, we must build industries, we must give jobs to people. If this argument had prevailed there would be no Jamshedpur, and today the quality of life in Jamshedpur is better than in any other city in India. It has 24 hours water supply, electric supply, it has education for all its residents, and it has cleaner air than any other city. Had these people been around to advice Mr Jamshedji Tata in 1908, there would have been no Jamshedpur at all.
SC: There’s little evidence to go by. There was a culture of collective good and nation-building which no longer exists.
I don’t agree that the only ones with conscience and sensitivity to the environment are NGOs, and that business houses and entrepreneurs have no conscience and are totally oblivious to the larger good. I don’t agree at all. Just go to Neyveli and see. What was Neyveli? It was the poorest part of Tamil Nadu and today it is a humming, buzzing town and it has a school which has hundred percent pass results every year. The boys and girls from that school are toppers in competitive examinations. I sincerely hope you do not believe the poor enjoy a high quality of life.
SC: Our governments have been pretty derelict in regulating or nudging corporates to behave well. The Vedanta project in the Niyamgiri hills in Orissa is a good example. It earned international censure for its untenable behaviour in Orissa, a Norwegian fund even divested from it because of that. But here it took a PIL to stall the project. Would you agree that our government is failing to bat for the common good?
We have enough laws to take care of the issue. Apply those laws. If the Central or state government does not enforce environmental laws then blame that government. If the laws are inadequate, strengthen them, but in the name of the environment, for heaven’s sake, please don’t say that the poor should remain poor for the next five thousand years.
SC: Take Vedanta again. I’m asking what is the view from the other side, what is the government’s thinking on them? Even after they were stalled by the Supreme Court, the government asked it to reapply for the project under its Indian company. You argued as a lawyer for them when you weren’t Finance Minister.
In one of their excise cases. What has that got to do with this? Are you insinuating that my answers are coloured by the fact that I appeared for them? If a lawyer is pleading for a client in a murder case, does that imply that he has complicity in the murder? What is the relevance of your statement?
SC: Alright, I’ll withdraw it. I am asking, given their dismal track record in Orissa, why is the government defending their position instead of disqualifying them or pushing them towards better practices?
So do it. Who is preventing you? Apply the laws. But don’t stop the project. That’s the only way of rescuing those people from the clutches of abject poverty.
… SC: It sounds like a pipedream, because the experience on the ground is very different. Look at Gurgaon — emblem of India Shining, coming up on virgin land. It could have been a kind of urban utopia. Instead, there is no water, no electricity, no public transport, huge pollution, and absolutely no space or planning for the poor. Take any other B-town. Moradabad. Siliguri. Patna. Take the megalopolises — imploding under the weight of growth. The poor definitely don’t seem to be benefiting in these places.
So shall we leave people to live in these villages?
SC: I am asking is there a slower, deeper, more varied way of doing things that might not mean instant and insane wealth for a few of us, and yet ensure overall growth?
Apply the laws. Apply town-planning laws. The laws do not allow you to build without providing water and open spaces. You are passing off our collective failure to apply laws upon the model of development itself. I don’t think there is anything wrong with the model of development. It is just the unwillingness of the authorities to enforce rules and regulations. The answer is not to go back to the past and say, if we cannot apply the laws, let’s continue to live in our original state of poverty, neglect and despair.
SC: Let’s go back to national resources, like minerals. When you hand over natio – nal wealth to private corporations driven purely by the profit motive, what is the logic of usage? What’s to stop them cynically destituting a place before moving on?
Don’t hand it over to a private corporation. Set up an efficient PSU if you want.
SC: But you are against PSUs.
We are not, who said we are? We are putting more money in NTPC, SAIL, NMDC. We have revived 29 sick PSUs and put aside 13,000 crores in the last four years for this. So create a PSU. But why this old mental block that private is greed and therefore bad, and public is good.
SC: There are bad examples. Union Carbide, Enron.
If you want to continue with those traditional images of public and private sector you are welcome. The point I’m making is coal and iron ore is not meant to be kept buried under Mother Earth. They have to be put to use. As for your fears about environment and overuse, when we found that mining Kudremukh iron ore is highly polluting, we stopped mining it. But the argument that resources should not be used is an argument that must be rejected. Those who say that have a vested interest in perpetuating poverty.
I am with the finance minister on this.
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